387. Combat Veteran Tells the Truth about Empathy | Crisis Response with Joe Smarro

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Joe Smarro: 

Anytime I see a story or a video of a first responder behaving poorly or doing something publicly where everyone is like, oh my goodness, I can't believe they would do that, they should know better. My first thought right away is like, man, I can't even imagine what's going on at home for them.

Dr. Richard Shuster: 

Hello and welcome to The Daily Helping with Dr. Richard Shuster, food for the brain, knowledge from the experts, tools to win at life. I'm your host, Dr. Richard. Whoever you are, wherever you're from, and whatever you do, this is the show that is going to help you become the best version of yourself. 

Each episode, you will hear from some of the most amazing, talented, and successful people on the planet who followed their passions and strive to help others. Join our movement to get a million people each day to commit acts of kindness for others. Together, we're going to make the world a better place. Are you ready? Because it's time for your Daily Helping.

Thanks for tuning in to this very special Veterans Day episode of the Daily Helping Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Richard. And our guest today, Joe Smarro, is a dedicated Marine combat veteran and mental health advocate on a mission to transform crisis intervention and eradicate suicide among first responders.

His innovative work in crisis response has had a lasting impact influencing policing practices across the country and changing the way law enforcement approaches mental health. There's a lot to his story that I omitted from this because I want him to share it in his own words because it's so powerful. But Joe, welcome to The Daily Helping. It is great to have you with us today. 

Joe Smarro: 

Thank you, Dr. Richard. I appreciate it. It's an honor to be here. 

Dr. Richard Shuster: 

So I removed so much intentionally, like the whole story is there, but I want people to hear it. I think we sometimes don't do our origin stories justice when we rattle, have somebody else rattle them off in 20 seconds. So let's jump in the Joe Smarro time machine. I want to hear kind of your superhero origin story. What puts you on the path you're on today? 

Joe Smarro: 

Yeah. So it's a story that's probably not unlike many people's, but it's a lot of suffering. My childhood was not ideal. A lot of trauma, sexual abuse starting at seven years old, followed by about eight years of physical abuse. Eventually, decided to like I'm going to start leaving home more as much as possible when I became about 15 years old. And it was my girlfriend, 9th grade, 10th grade, 11th grade, my junior year, my girlfriend at the time's parents were like, “Hey, why don't you come stay with us at the time?” And while I'm not proud of this, but I tell people as a junior that was just in school and playing sports, I didn't know how to thank them, and I didn't have a job to give them any money. And so then I was like, oh, I know I'll get their daughter pregnant and that's a joke. But yeah, I had my daughter who will be 25 actually at the end of October in my senior year of high school. 

And that's the reason I joined the Marine Corps. It wasn't because I always knew I wanted to be in the Marines. In fact, my childhood best friend was in the delayed entry program for the Marine Corps. And once he realized that my girlfriend and I were going to have a baby, he was like, “Hey, I want to have the recruiter come talk to you”. 

And so the Marine Corps recruiter did a great job. And he showed up and was like, “Hey man, we're going to help you out. Don't stress it. We'll take care of everything, medical, insurance, housing”. But what do you want to do? And I was like, I really want to go play soccer. And he was like the Marine Corps has a soccer team. And I was like, really? 

And yeah, so I joined the Marine Corps and that was in 2000, pre 9/11. And I tell people truly that hats off to anyone that has joined the service post 9/11, because you knew what you were getting into. I don't know that I would have had the courage to do it if I knew what was going on globally. And I joined the Marine Corps in 2000. And then when 9/11 happened, I'm a young father. I'm stationed out in California. I'm from upstate New York. I've never been away from home, even though home was not a good place for me. All I knew was chaos and trauma. And then I find myself as a young father out in California, then 9/11 happens.

And now I've got a deployment over to Afghanistan. And then I was with the first Marine division up into Iraq in March of 2003, and it truly changed my life forever and not in the best ways. I mean, it was a very, very traumatic experience for me, obviously, being deployed to a combat zone and infiltrating a country like that and having friends die, seeing death and carnage and then just coming home, getting out. And then wondering like, well, what the heck am I going to do with myself? 

And so that's then when I joined the police department, because it's just a natural transition and moved to San Antonio, Texas, got on the police department, spent 15 years there. And so that's the high-level time machine of my life and how I ended up where I am today.

Dr. Richard Shuster: 

And so I mentioned this briefly, and again, I don't -- a sentence just can't do it justice. But I know your mission is to help reduce suicides and first responder address mental health crises and first responders. Talk to us, because again you had this award-winning documentary, which came a little bit before you're doing what you're doing now. And I only knew that because we talked about it off air before we hit the record button here. But tell us a little bit about that work, because I think that work based on what you told me shaped a lot of what you're doing today. And I think it's important to talk about that. 

Joe Smarro: 

Yeah. So Dr. Richard, the documentary was an incredible opportunity. Jen McShane is the filmmaker that she's a phenomenal filmmaker, documentary maker from the Northeast. And so she came down, there was an article written in the Atlantic called Policing with Velvet Gloves by Ann Snyder and focusing on the work that we were doing as a mental health unit in San Antonio. And so, through her connections, she got that article to Jen McShane. Jen McShane was curious, decided to come down to San Antonio. She did a ride along for one day and then was like, yes, I can see this. 

What I didn't realize was that it was going to be about three years of filming, about 300 hours of content that they then -- shout out to her brilliant editor, Toby Shuman, who was able to take that 300 hours and edit it down to 96 minutes, which ultimately is what won the Emmy for best editing. And it really just focused on the work we did. But it wasn't just on the external factor of doing the work. 

What Jen really wanted to focus on, and I think she did brilliantly, was -- and the reason why it was titled Ernie and Joe Crisis Cops was so many first responders are -- we are almost distracted by our titles, right? I am Officer Smarro. Like, no, that's just my job. Right? And what she saw on that first ride along was when we show up to calls, right, where I'm playing clothes, unmarked cars. I had a badge I would take out to identify myself, put it back in my shirt and I'd say, Hey, I'm Joe. This is my partner, Ernie. We're with the police department. You're not in any trouble. We're just here to help you out. And that was our standard approach to everybody. 

And she was like, that is so fascinating because what typically is represented with police officers is authority or aggression. And our focus was always compassion and connection. And that was the biggest difference that she was like, I want to put this on camera was these guys are police officers, but also, I want you to see them go home. 

And when we did like the media tour, different film festivals, that was the biggest thing that stuck out to me was people's fascination and curiosity with like -- and I had a woman legitimately come up to me and say I didn't realize cops were people too that go home at the end of the day and have their own struggles. And I was like, that is -- but what kind of statement is that? But I had so much empathy and compassion of like, wow, we only know the world through the lens which we see it. Right. 

And so this documentary, I think, did a brilliant job of educating the public just as much that, listen, we have our own struggles as well. We go home to our families. We have our own fears. And just because we're cops, we are still imperfect people out there trying to do the best we can. And it's no different with the military as well. 

My first exposure to suicide was as a young man at 15 years old, a classmate had took his own life. And then in the Marine Corps, I witnessed it. People in our unit had killed themselves while in Iraq. And then one of our close friends, Dwayne Dockings, when we got out after our four years and our two tours, there was a pretty close group of five of us. And Dwayne Dockings, he was a lawyer out in California and just poster child for the Marine Corps and sharp, sharp guy. And just couldn't overcome the war that never left him. And so he ended up taking his own life as well. 

And then, I joined the police department. And it wasn't, if I went on the mental health unit where -- and I tell people too, like when I joined the mental health unit of San Antonio, I was a massive hypocrite for probably almost two years. I showed up every day on every call, just telling people all the greatest advice. If you just take your medicine and go to the doctor and follow your care continuum, then you wouldn't have to deal with the police. And I was an absolute nightmare. 

By the time I was 30 years old, I already had three divorces. I have four kids from three different women, and I was using women as a drug to cope with my own process trauma. And I had never been in therapy since my childhood sexual abuse where I didn't even go to school. My third-grade year, I was in and out of therapy like three days a week. But after all of that, I never dealt with any of it. 

And I remember my wife leaving me. And she was like, while I absolutely hate you because of what you've done to me and how you've hurt me, emotionally and psychologically, by having an affair, she goes something’s seriously wrong with you. And I remember vividly sitting in my apartment and I was a cop and I'm staring at my gun belt, and I was thinking like, I'm so tired of so easily making these poor choices where I just, I hurt people. Everything I do hurts people. It's so easy for me just to step out and have these affairs. I didn't realize at the time, after all the work I've done now that I was just sabotaging myself because I didn't feel I deserved anything good, or I wasn't worthy of love. And so if I'm with a partner and she's treating me well, then I must ruin this to protect myself, which is not the greatest logic. But when you have a lot of trauma, right, it made perfect sense to me. 

And so I remember, I was sitting there and I decided like I either need to take my life right now, or I need to go to the VA. And also in that moment, it was, I had this very clear just vivid thought of I need to go to college, and I was like 31 year -- I'd never been -- I thought I hated school. I did not enjoy high school again because my home life wasn't stable, so school was just a social thing. And I didn't do well with my grades, so I truly thought I was a dumb person. 

And like thank God, I decided to walk into the VA. Now, this is in San Antonio where we have SAMHSA level one burn centers, the center for intrepid. We have all these amazing facilities here and I'm physically fine and on the mental health unit advocating for people with mental health but could not see the forest for the trees, right? And so I walked into the VA, the vet center actually, and was like, I don't know what's wrong with me, but I need help. And that was 15 years ago. And I'm still actively engaged and involved in my own treatment and mental health therapy now. 

And what I realized was because I've struggled with suicidal ideation since I was 15 years old but then I worked on a mental health unit where we had police officers killing themselves. And I mean, when we had three in an 18-month span, it was like, what is going on? And I really took it personal as like, if I could just do more, if I could just love them better, if I could just advocate harder, if I could just -- it was somehow internalized as to being my fault, my responsibility, which again, praise to my therapist taught me about boundaries and how to protect myself.

And so now as the CEO and owner of Solution Point Plus, our vision, which is something that we probably will never achieve is to eradicate suicide amongst all first responders. That's the thing we focus on. And as long as we're focused on that, knowing we may never achieve it, I think we're going to make great strides to get there, but this is a personal thing for me. 

Every training we provide, everything we do is with the individual in mind, and I even wrote it as a chapter in my book called Worthy of Tomorrow, meaning like we deserve -- we're a miracle to be in this world. You deserve tomorrow and no matter how hard or dark it can be, there's beauty in the other side of that, if you're just willing to sit in it long enough and find the right people to rally around you to get you through it, there's incredible beauty and grace on the other side of that suffering. So, yes, thank you for that question, Dr Richard. 

Dr. Richard Shuster: 

I was thinking this and you just said it. Literally, it was going to be the next words out of your mouth that the research is pretty clear that suicidality amongst veterans looks pretty similar to that of law enforcement. It's just -- it's a different battlefield, but it is a battlefield. 

And so, as you have been working with first responders who are suicidal, because the world, the landscape of the world has changed. We're in a post COVID world. There's unbelievable geopolitical upheaval. What are some of the new challenges that you're seeing facing first responders that they didn't previously have to deal with on top of everything else?

Joe Smarro: 

Yeah. I guess the specific challenges are fear. There's a lot of fear, right? Where we used to, I would say, first responder professions were almost trained or taught. I tell people just kind of metaphorically that they instill paranoia in us. The world is dangerous. People are bad. You're going to die. Be careful all the time always. 

And so that makes it very hard to turn it off. And while we used to fear the bad person out there or the criminal element or the repeat offender that is going to hurt or kill or ambush a police officer, now that fear is really exacerbated. It's fear of retribution, fear of your own department head turning on you, fear of sanctuary trauma, fear of -- and not even having a lack of understanding -- like, I'm sorry, having a lack of understanding of what's even happening, right, with we don't do a good enough. 

We prepare so much in our academies for like the bad day, but we don't do nearly enough work in how to prepare our minds for what do we do with all this horrible trauma that we've just consumed throughout the day, week, month, and year. And no one's taught me how to process this or put this down. And so that's why we quickly will turn to substances and anything that what I call the four plagues of the first responder, the things we will use to mask our suffering. 

And so when I see, and we've been saying this for a long time with the company, but anytime I see a first responder, police, fire, EMS corrections, dispatch, nurses, social workers, clinicians, people that are responding in the community, I think first responder has really expanded as it should. 

But anytime I see a story or a video of a first responder behaving poorly or doing something publicly where everyone is like, oh my goodness, I can't believe they would do that, they should know better. My first thought right away is like, man, I can't even imagine what's going on at home for them. I can't imagine what's going on in their own mind that they have resorted to this outcome because what I tell people is when we are not willing to listen to the words, the behaviors will always reveal the truth. 

And sometimes, it's very hard for a first responder to speak out and say, which is why the talk I give is called We Need to Talk. We have all these advocates and groups out there saying, we'll listen, and we'll listen, and we have support and resources. But if the first responder is not willing to talk, then you're listening is irrelevant, right? And so we have to really teach and advocate for people to be willing, which is why I do this, right?

As someone that's diagnosed with a mental health issue, I have a PTSD and persistent depressive disorder. And I was a cop, and I would tell my own people this, a hundred percent service connected through the VA for mental health and I'm in treatment. And I own a company. And now I have a family that I'm proud of and I'm not destroying, right? So it's -- but it's taken a lot of work to get there. 

And so I try to use my story to inspire other people that it is possible, but I think a lot of first responders are afraid of what happens if I ask for help. There's a lack of policy. Am I going to get my gun taken away? Am I going to get sidelined? Am I going to lose my job because I'm too weak to do this? There's a lot of fear that goes into this. And sadly, policing is so decentralized in this country. Nothing is the same anywhere. And so it's really, really hard to get universal acceptance. And it comes down to just culture for me. 

Dr. Richard Shuster: 

You brought up fear a lot. And basically, a first responder comes into their new world as a first responder, right? They go through training, whatever their subdiscipline is, but they're taught inherently to fear, right? And it's worse now than it used to be. Where's the humanity in this? Where's the empathy? Where does that piece fit in? 

Joe Smarro: 

It sadly doesn't. And I will admit, I left the profession now four years ago. And so if someone's like, no, it's better now, right, in the last four years. Awesome. But I also travel all over the country and I'm in multiple states working with police departments all over the place, and it hasn't changed. There's still a lot of police departments that are doing things the way it used to be done in the good old days, as they would say. 

And to me, that's just -- it might not be a popular statement or opinion. It is an opinion of mine, but I tell people that police departments are typically about 10 years or more behind the communities they serve. And the reason for that is because whoever's running the police academies are running it the way it used to be around when I went through back in the day. And so it keeps us from really catching up to the world that's going on around us. And fear, and the way you said it, Dr. Richard was like, we're taught to fear. It's actually the inverse. We are taught, do not have fear. You will not be afraid. Run into the fire. 

Dr. Richard Shuster: 

I see. Okay. 

Joe Smarro: 

Yeah. But the problem is there's still human beings and I promise you they're very much afraid. Right? Every traffic stop is scary. Every time you walk into a stranger's home is scary. Every time you get a call for domestic violence, it's scary. We're constantly afraid, but we, for months, we're told you better not show fear. Do not be afraid. Do not be afraid. Do not be afraid. 

So then, and I talk about this in the documentary, but it's like, so, okay, you just injected me with all this paranoia and fear, but then you told me, don't be afraid. Don't fear anything. And then you tell me, go serve my community. So I'm on guard all the time. Like I'm looking at everything, watching everyone, scanning everything, but I'm also supposed to show up and be like a good steward to my community and be like present and available. 

And that's been the hardest thing for, in my opinion, for first responders to really understand, and I had to do this for myself. It wasn't that the police department, San Antonio didn't teach me the things that I know now. It was therapy that taught me these things, and then my own due diligence of learning about the brain and what's happening to me and what cortisol is doing to my body and how staying in a stressed response is not serving me and it's going to kill me very fast, like quicker than I would die naturally. 

And so I started to challenge a lot of these, like archaic stories that were told to me of like, the world is bad, people are dangerous, you're going to die. It's like, or not. I choose to see the good in people. And yeah, I know that there's some bad people out there and people are going to do bad things. And as a police officer, if we're really honest, most of the time, we are pursuing people, bringing the thing to them. Very rarely are people bringing the bad to us. And it does happen and I'm aware it's happened, but people will take one or two examples of something in history and say, this is the norm for always. And it's just not true. 

Dr. Richard Shuster: 

So, I can't help but keep going back. Especially because you've told me you've seen this professionally where you're helping people. You've seen this personally as you have received and continue to receive mental health support, empathy, right? So, if it's not there, how do we get it to be part of it? Or should we? Right? That's an even more interesting question. Like, in the line of work as a first responder, is there the luxury to have empathy? 

Joe Smarro: 

I think, yes, it's a fascinating question, Dr. Richard, that you just posed. And I appreciate that like catch and reframe too. I think it's absolutely necessary. And there's a lot of people that challenge that and think like, as a police officer, I can't have empathy because that's where I'm vulnerable and that's going to get me killed. And empathy is a weakness. I think empathy is a superpower. 

And again, I want to admit that like, this is coming from my own experience, but working in the 7th largest city in the country, right, the 12th largest police department. On the mental health unit, I was in plain clothes, but even as a police, I worked overtime every weekend because I had a high child support bill. I told you poor choices for me, right? And so I worked a lot of overtime. It was the same when I was in uniform. 

When I understood that I could use who I am, right, this is why -- my thing was focused on the person, not the problem. That right there is empathy. Focus on the person, not the reason you're there. And what I tell first responders is if you found yourself becoming frustrated with why you're getting called, or you're getting frustrated with people's problems, you've lost perspective. Because people's problems are what give you permission to have your purpose. And I know that's a lot of peas, right? But I genuinely believe that. 

If there's a -- if you're a first responder listening to this, don't ever lose sight of that. If people didn't have problems, you wouldn't have a function. You wouldn't be employed. You wouldn't have your job that you love. It is people's problems that give us our permission to have the purpose we have. So be grateful for them, but then show up and see the person, not the reason you're there. Like, yes, be safe always. Yes, obviously tactics, yes, yes, yes. Yes. 

But I went 11 years on the mental health unit, over 8,465 human contacts, the sickest of the sick, schizoaffective disorder, cooccurring issues, people high on methamphetamine, floridly, psychotic, not one use of force. Barricaded knives, jumpers, you name it, not one use of force because I showed up every situation focusing on the person, not the problem. And my goal was always connection before correction. 

And I truly, and I write about this in the book. I formed that when I -- I call it the CCRTC model. And it's curiosity leads to connection, connection develops rapport, rapport develops trust, trust leads to compliance. And if you want to get someone to do the thing you want them to do, it all starts with curiosity. Who is this person? What is their story? How can I connect or relate to them versus authority and aggression. I'm here. You called me here. I am in charge. Do what I say. Barking orders. That's only going to get you so far. It's going to get you hurt more than not. If you show up genuinely like, yeah, I have the authority at the end of the day, I have the skills if I need to use them, but people don't understand the paradoxical shift between power and authority, which is the less authority you appear to have, the more control you actually have. And the more authority you try to project, the less control you have. 

So for me, it was always just calm is cool. I'm very much confident in my ability, but I'm never going to puff for fish, rah, rah, make myself big and start screaming and yelling because that's only going to make the situation worse. Empathy to me is the single most important thing that we can develop, right, there with effective communication and active listening skills. Empathy is everything. 

And I really think it's something that can be learned, can be developed and can be nourished or nurtured throughout time if you're willing to put the work in to do it. And the last thing on this, I'll say, Dr Richard is to me when people are like -- because there's a debate, can empathy be taught? You either have it or you don't.  

And for me, I think empathy comes far more easier when you are willing to look at yourself and face yourself and who you are, where you come from, what your fears are, why you see the world the way you do and start genuinely being curious about yourself. Then I think empathy becomes much easier for other people, but a lot of people are trying to be empathetic to everyone else when they never have spent a moment to look at their own self.

Dr. Richard Shuster: 

That's beautifully said. And I think that applies really across settings, right? Like, self-care has unfortunately become a bit of a buzzword since COVID, right? It was self-care, self-care. But the reality is, you really can't help other people if you don't help yourself first. And I don't care what situation you're in, what walk of life, what profession, what role. If you're not actively, and actively means all the time, right, taking steps to find that grounding, that center, that piece for you, you're really going to struggle to help the people you care about the most. 

Joe, I so applaud the work that you're doing at Solution Point Plus. You are preventing suicides, and you are helping so many people. And I love that you are bringing your superpower of empathy to law enforcement officers everywhere.  

This has been a great conversation. As you know, I wrap up every episode by asking my guests just this one question, and that is, what is your biggest helping, that one most important piece of information you'd like somebody to walk away with after hearing our conversation today?

Joe Smarro: 

Yeah. And thank you, Dr. Richard for your time also in your platform. And I think the one thing that I want your audience to know is that not only are you loved, and I know that's like, oh, it's try -- you just say that. Man, woman, it doesn't matter to me when we can understand that love is just like empathy, it's our superpower. I love you all. I love you, Dr. Richard. I just met you. Why? Because you're a person on your journey trying to do good for other people and that's worthy and deserving. 

And I just wish all people would understand that you deserve to be loved regardless of the thoughts you've had, the choices you've made, the mistakes you've made, the people you've hurt, the wrong you've done, regardless of all of it, you deserve to be loved. And you have to start by accepting that and acknowledging that and understanding that for yourself, because when you accept your own truth of I am worthy and I am lovable, it makes it so much easier to connect with other people and love them as well. And so I love you all and I appreciate everyone's time. And again, thank you so much, Dr. Richard. 

Dr. Richard Shuster: 

Beautifully said, Joe. We're grateful that you spent some time with us today. Tell us where people can find out about you and learn more about the great work you're doing online. 

Joe Smarro: 

Yeah. So my website is joesmarro.com. The company website is solutionpointplus.com. And then the book Unarmed by Joe Smarro is unarmedbook.com. So you've got three different options to find me. And then I would love to connect with people. If I had choice order of operations for what we're trying to do, it's Instagram, LinkedIn, and then Facebook. And that's all @JoeSmarro on there as well. And so again, thank you so much, Dr. Richard. I really appreciate you and wish you all the best. 

Dr. Richard Shuster: 

Perfect. Again, this has been great for me. I'm really grateful we had this time together. And for those of you in the car at the gym, wherever you are, we've got you covered. Everything Joe Smarro is going to be featured in the show notes at drrichardshuster.com. Well, again, Joe, thank you for your time today. It was amazing. The work you're doing is so vitally important. 

And to each and every one of you who took time out of your day to listen to this, thank you as well. If you like what you heard, go give us a follow and a five-star review on your podcast app of choice, because this is what helps other people find the show. But most importantly, go out there today and do something nice for somebody else, even if you don't know who they are, and post in your social media feeds using the hashtag, #MyDailyHelping, because the happiest people are those that help.