416. “Leadership is for everyone.” | We All Have a Role to Play with Ken Banta

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Ken Banta:
So, I think that concept that everyone has a leadership role to play and leadership capabilities is the takeaway, I think, from that book.

Dr. Richard Shuster:
Hello and welcome to The Daily Helping with Dr. Richard Shuster. Food for the brain, knowledge from the experts, tools to win at life. I'm your host, Dr. Richard. Whoever you are, wherever you're from, and whatever you do, this is the show that is going to help you become the best version of yourself. Each episode, you will hear from some of the most amazing, talented, and successful people on the planet who followed their passions and strived to help others. Join our movement to get a million people each day to commit acts of kindness for others. Together, we're going to make the world a better place. Are you ready? Because it's time for your Daily Helping. 

Thanks for tuning into this episode of the Daily Helping Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Richard. And I'm excited beyond description about our guest today because he is a dynamo. His name is Ken Banta. He's the founder and CEO of  the Vanguard Network. And he's here to talk to us today about his newest book, Seeing Around Quarters, which is available now everywhere. He's an expert in leadership and change, who aided 11 global turnarounds, mergers, and transformations for companies such as Pharmacia, Baoxian Long, and many, many others. 

Ken sees the insights in the pages of his book as keys to developing high-performance leadership skills for early career, high potential, through to global CEOs. Ken, we've got a lot to talk about. Welcome to The Daily Helping. It is awesome to have you with us today.

Ken Banta:
Well, thanks a lot for having me. I'm delighted to be here.

Dr. Richard Shuster:
Well, we are excited you're here as well. And so, before we get into the book, and we will, of course, I want to jump on the Ken Banta time machine. Talk to us. Let's go back in time, talk to us about that seminal moment or series of events that puts you on the path you're on today.

Ken Banta:
Well, that's a great question. I think that it probably was a series of moments. You know, before the things I'm doing today, I was a journalist for almost a decade with Time Magazine. And for about five of those years, I was the Bureau Chief covering Eastern Europe during the Gorbachev-inspired revolutions. And so, I think in many ways, what I'm doing today was inspired by the leaders that I worked with and or met during that time, Václav Havel, Lech Wałęsa and others. And it really gave me, I think,  a great insight into the power of effective leadership.

Dr. Richard Shuster:
And so, from journalism, how did you wind up creating Vanguard?

Ken Banta:
Yeah, it was a bit serendipitous, I would say. I really was, for reasons that turned out to be really wise, but not at the time, I left journalism just as that whole area of print journalism collapsed with the arrival of the internet and online news. And I went into public affairs work as a consultant for about five years. I got headhunted to run communications for a company that was eventually to become Pharmacia Corporation, which was one of those train wreck companies that you mentioned. It was really headed for the dustbin of history and we were very fortunate, working together with a terrific CEO and a leadership team, to turn it around. 

And so, that was really my entry into the business world. And at that time, I really thought I'd do that for a couple of years and then see what happens. As it turned out, I was involved in one thing after the other for almost 18 years. And it was after the final turnaround of that kind with Bausch + Lomb that several people suggested to me, I've done so much work with leadership and change, why not look into some way of scaling that as an advisory and networking approach versus working on it from the inside. And so, that's how the organization that I run today, the Vanguard Network was created.

Dr. Richard Shuster:
Makes total sense. And so, you have this unique perspective. You've been in the journalism side. You've really… I mean, like you said, you got out when print media started collapsing. But what a fascinating time period that you were covering, you know, right? The Gorbachev era and end of the Cold War and what that new world looked like after the wall fell in Germany.  So, you also had, kind of, the PR experience, the publicity experience. 

So, you've had a unique view, both at a macro and micro level of change and leadership and what those ramifications could be, not only for an organization, but if you're listening to this and you're not the CEO of a corporation, I think a lot of these things are, these lessons that we're going to talk about are very much applicable to life overall. But are there, kind of, sweeping patterns that you observed societally that you think are impactful and worth noting?

Ken Banta:
Yes. Gosh, so many of them. I think that for me, looking back over those years, what stands out in hindsight is, you know, first of all, my experiences in Eastern Europe gave me a lot of appreciation for the resilience and the power of ordinary people really because almost all of those revolutions, in fact, all of them really occurred because the people in Czech and Slovak republics, in Poland and Hungary and other places really, in many ways, kind of made their voices heard and pushed back against the Soviet bloc empire. And they kind of took courage from each other, which I think is another point. You know, once you have a kind of a spot of a beacon of light, it allows others to follow.

And so, when you look back at those changes, it was really a kind of domino effect. And it began in Poland, and in some respects, it moved to the Czech and Slovak Republic and then went from there. But each one of those companies emboldened the ones that followed. And I think that was really quite a striking thing to see. You know, that combined with, really, transformational leaders in those countries who rose to the occasion. 

Václav Havel, who was the hero of the Czechoslovak revolution, was such an unlikely guy in many ways who is basically a literary theorist and a professor; and yet, he really became a symbol of and a leader of this vast revolution across the region. And so, that kind of  thing is really quite, you know, on one hand, unexpected and also there's a real lesson in it which is that in some cases, I suppose, leaders are designed to bring about change and they start out as transformational leaders in many ways. Others kind of rise to the occasion. And in those Eastern European countries, in many ways, it was unlikely people rising to the occasion.  I mean, like Wałęsa was a ship worker. And as I said, Havel, an academician, not your typical revolutionary leaders.

Dr. Richard Shuster:
I know you'll have a lot more to say about leadership as we start talking about the book, but you know what an interesting point, right? When we think about revolutionaries, I think about, you know, the Les Mis character standing on a barricade screaming but you're talking about a literary theorist who probably had a more subdued personality and yet was able to rally people to the cause. Fascinating. 

So, I'm already loving this conversation, Ken. I want to jump forward a little bit. Now, you've got the Vanguard Network, you're in swing, you're working with leaders all over the world. In this book, why did you decide to write the book and why now?

Ken Banta:
Well, why the book? Really, because through this network that we've created of very senior people, very well-known people in many respects who are leaders, we saw an opportunity to bring to life some of their thinking in a way that hopefully would be very accessible, not just to other leaders of big organizations,  but really the yous and mes. Everybody who reads this book, I think can find some inspiration in it for what they do in their daily life. This is not a handbook for running a global corporation. It's really quite personal thoughts about how to get things done and how to get other people to get them done with you. So, that's sort of the why. 

And the now is, really, just a matter of, kind of, recognizing that we had a critical mass of people in the organization and we were, in some ways, not quite tapping into all that knowledge in as effective a way as we could. They would be talking about what they know in different fora, in different ways, but not in this kind of collective approach. And so, I think what we're kind of pleased about with the book is that it pulls together a lot of insight on a lot of stuff fortunately in, I think, a very bite-sized fashion. So, these are not long, boring chapters. They're a page or a page and a half or a half page of,  I think, really deep thoughts from sharp people. But almost all of it, in fact, I'd say all of it, things that you can apply in your daily life.

Dr. Richard Shuster:
This makes a lot of sense. And again, I love that the book is these little bite-sized anecdotes of wisdom from all of these leaders you've interacted with. You could literally pick the book up and grab three minutes at a time and start chewing your way through it. One of the things, thematically, that to me felt like it appears in the book over and over is disruption, right? And we're living in wild times, right? So, talk to us, you know, from your perspective about disruption and how we can use it to our advantage. 

Ken Banta:
Yeah, I think that when we started putting that book together, we weren't in quite the age of disruption that we're now, but I think that it is actually very relevant in many ways. And I think, to me, one of the most important responses to disruption, aside from a good sense of humor, is to be able to adapt and to have agility because in a situation where there is profound change going on or unsettling change or even chaos, those qualities of adaptability and agility suddenly jump to the front. 

You know, in some situations you look to leaders, whether they're of your school or your company or yourself, you look for steadiness and a clear direction. That continues to be important, but how you get there might be now a zigzag because the events around you are things that you cannot ignore, you have to adapt to them. 

And so, for example, you're running a small business in Iowa and suddenly tariffs are beginning to impact your supply of the things you sell, you probably never anticipated that. And yet, you know, the successful person will figure out a way around it. They will figure out a way to adapt to that problem, whether it's to change what they do or change how they get things. But just staying the course, you know, in that situation is not very helpful.

Dr. Richard Shuster:
That makes sense. And I'm curious, we'll talk more about adaption in a bit, but I was thinking as you're talking, you've interviewed so many people. I don't know the number, I'm sure you do. How many experts did you interview for this book?

Ken Banta:
Well, for the book itself, probably a couple hundred. In overall, you know, between journalism and Vanguard over these last years, I imagine it's in the 3000 range.

Dr. Richard Shuster:
Right. So, you don't have to keep this constrained to the book. If there's some answers to this question that fall within your journalism world, that's fine too. But I'm curious because there's obviously patterns that emerge, right? When you interview hundreds of people about a specific topic, there's gonna be themes that emerge. But I'm also curious, what were the things that emerged that shocked you the most that you just weren't expecting to get?

Ken Banta:
Yes, well, one thing that surprises me, still, is the way in which really impactful leaders, I think, are very self-deprecating. And so, the noisy leaders are the ones that draw a lot of attention to themselves. And sometimes, they have impact, but I think the leaders who are really more profound and have longer lasting impact are surprisingly self-effacing. They don't make a big deal of their presence.  They enter a room and people pay attention because of their presence, not because of the noise that they're making. So to me, that's one, you know, if not shocking at least pleasant surprise. 

Another element of if not shock again, a surprise is the way in which really successful leaders are exceptionally consistent. I don't mean that they just walk through walls when there's change around them, but they're very consistent about where they're going and where they see success lying, and then they find their path. But the direction they're taking, the kind of North Star, is just amazing. And we don't all have that quality, but I think developing that quality is a big plus, whether you're leading a hockey team or leading a corporation. I think it's a reason that people then develop followership because people really value that sense of purpose that's and not a sense of purpose that changes every 10 minutes, but a sense of purpose that's constant. 

And the maybe a third thing that I was surprised by was the degree to which really successful leaders are deeply in touch with the people at the front lines, whether that means the people who are on the factory floor or the people who are making a product or who are the worker people on the PTA, it doesn't really matter, but the people who are really great leaders are really in touch with those individuals and they also work through those individuals to understand what's going on on the ground. 

Now, if it's a small organization, that's a little less important, but even still, it's remarkable how distant you can be from the action if you're not the one doing the acting. And of course, when you're in a much larger organization,  it becomes exponentially more important to have that connectivity with what's really going on in the world. Some people call it having a grounding in reality or a sense of the true state of affairs. There's all kinds of ways of putting it, but it's that ability to really know what's happening on the ground and kind of being down to earth. And I think that the best leaders I've seen come in shapes and sizes and different, sort of, ethos, but they all have that quality.

Dr. Richard Shuster:
I wanna go back to the consistency that you found that these leaders are consistent, people follow them because they see a vision, they're guiding to the North Star, they have their purpose and they're unwavering in that. So, in that, you've interviewed so many successful leaders, how does one cultivate that skill?

Ken Banta:
Yeah. So, a person who jumps out in that category is a CEO I worked with for many years who's still active as a leader named Fred Hasson. He was the architect, and the CEO, and then the chairman of the three successive turnarounds transformations that I was involved in in the past. And I think that the way that I saw someone like that cultivating consistency was very conscious. So, I think when he came into a room, when he wrote a message to employees or to board, he really was, I think, and still is really conscious of the importance of consistency. 

So, it's not something that just happens. You have to have it constantly at the front of your mind and keep reminding yourself that that's what you need to do. Because otherwise, it's very easy for any of us to get distracted, and most people do. They kind of articulate the minute to minute thing they're trying to achieve. They don't really keep front and center where that's taking you. But again, I think that's what great leaders do. And I think it's just as simple as and as hard as keeping that purposefulness front of mind and consistency of purpose. Otherwise, you start to dodge and leave or lead people in too many different directions. 

And I think at the end of the day, that causes two things to happen. First of all, people get confused. And when they're confused, they're not effective. And also, they start to lose confidence in you, the leader. They lose trust in you because you can't be saying  all those things and they can't all be important. 

Dr. Richard Shuster:
That makes sense. No, that makes perfect sense. And again, I think there's a couple things wrapped up into that, right? Because you could make the argument that consistency of action but intense focus on purpose and vision, those are separate things. They're intertwined, but they're separate things. But I think what I'm hearing is that if you're clear on that and you make effort every single day to be unwavering, that's really what creates that groundswell within our teams to believe in us as leaders.

Ken Banta:
Yeah, I think so. And at the same time, that agility and adaptability is important. But it's adapting and being agile around the tactics versus the end. So, I think that's a really important difference. So, you know, leaders who keep saying, "Well, we're just going to do things the same way, no matter what changes around us," is not very smart and can lead to disaster. But I think leaders who keep changing the end game have problems because that's where people start to lose the plot and lose the confidence.

Dr. Richard Shuster:
Right. So, it's keeping the goal, right? The pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is still the same pot of gold. But the methodology upon which we arrive at the pot is where we need to be nimble. That's what, is that right?

Ken Banta:
And I think, you know, what's familiar to many people is that, you know, maybe it's a little overused but sports analogies, right? You know where you need to go with the ball but how you get it there changes every second. And I think it was Gretzky who said that how you get the puck in the goal is by looking ahead, not looking at the puck. And so, I think those two sorts of ideas, when you translate them into everyday life, are equally valid.

Dr. Richard Shuster:
Absolutely. So, you have used the term agility and adaptability multiple times. So for nomenclature, do you see those things as the same or different when you talk about them? 

Ken Banta:
I think they're different. You know, it's a good point. Adaptability is the ability to adjust yourself to reality, I think, and reality keeps changing, so that's why you have to adapt. Sometimes, reality doesn't change too much, you don't need to adapt as much,  but coming back to the age of disruption that we're in, adapting every second is probably necessary in many areas. 

Agility, I think, is the way that you execute on adaptability. So, you want to be adapting to circumstances. A new tariff disrupts your business, so new regulation changes or absence of a regulation affects you, internal changes within your organization, someone important leaves, all those things are disruptions that you want to adapt to, and you know what needs to happen, but then it's the agility that allows you to do that. And that's that ability to pivot and change and to not be constrained by what you did yesterday. And I think an awful lot of people do get caught up in being consistent. And yeah, you wanna be consistent about where you're going but you wanna be agile about how. 

And so again, sports analogies, I think, are pretty good. I do a lot of skiing. And so, going down a tricky slope with trees and unexpected obstacles, I know how I want to get down that slope, but I need to be constantly adapting to changes in the snow, changes in the terrain, unexpected obstacles. You don't just go straight down. For a lot of reasons in skiing, you don't go straight down. But among others, you don't necessarily go down the way you thought you were gonna go because you find out at the last second that something is in the way.

I do a lot of skiing in the back country and another obstacle and problem can be cliffs and avalanches. And so, there's some life-threatening items out there that you need to be aware of. And I think adaptability is the mindset and agility is the way you do it.

Dr. Richard Shuster:
And so, to even take that further using a skiing analogy. So, you know, a tree is something you can see; an avalanche is not. So to me, a tree is a tariff, right? And an avalanche is, there's a terrorist attack somewhere and the market just completely tanks or something crazy. So, when we're talking about a crisis, which is different than just pivoting because of dynamics of whatever's going on at that time, how do we apply, and what does the book tell us about how we apply adaptability and agility  so that we can be most effective from a leadership standpoint in an all-out crisis?

Ken Banta:
Yeah. So, to those two things, I would add the importance of having the right behaviors in your organization, and that's including an organization of one, if it's just yourself. But by behaviors, I mean that people talk a lot about sort of abstract things like ethics or how people should be thinking about things, but what really matters is what people do. 

And so, having in mind a set of really ideal behaviors will help most organizations from my experience and from what we've learned from all the people we've worked with, having the right behaviors makes a huge difference because if you have, for example, behaviors of adaptability, of behaviors of working in a collaborative fashion, behaviors that are gonna be enduring assets for the organization, even in a collaborative fashion, behaviors that are gonna be enduring assets for the organization, even in a crisis, when the crisis arrives, no one can predict exactly what that's gonna be, but what you can predict is how people should respond to things. 

And so, if you have a team that's got the qualities that you need for handling a crisis,  and those include adaptability and agility, as well as other qualities, then there's a greater likelihood that you're going to succeed because what's sort of clear about a crisis is you really didn't see it coming and you really didn't know what the exact content of it was going to be. But I think from my experience, if you bring those powers of behavior to bear as well as that sense of purpose. It's a terrific set of equipment to deal with otherwise pretty devastating situations. 

And it also, from what I've seen, gives the team that you're working with, if it's including yourself, a sense of confidence about how to get through something.  Because if they know that these qualities will help them prevail, even in a very challenging or dangerous situation, they're gonna be that much more confident, they're gonna be that much more of a team, and there's that much more of a chance  that they're gonna prevail.

Dr. Richard Shuster:
So, I wanna drill down a little deeper on something you said. So, you mentioned adaptability and agility and other qualities. What are a few of those other qualities that you think are so critical in leading during a crisis?

Ken Banta:
I think a sense of courage is extremely important. I think courageous leadership is very important and not always visible. We see all the time leaders of corporations or organizations, or whether they of corporations or organizations, or whether they're small or large, whether they're in a community or in a global organization, it's disappointing to see the leaders who really don't have that sense of courage about sticking to their values or sticking to their goals or championing their people. 

And then, equally, it's very rewarding to see leaders who do. And I think, you know, imagining again, going back in time to that period in Eastern Europe, you know, classic example, Lech Wałęsa,  I think kind of captured all those things I'm describing. Plenty of leaders that we see today don't. And I think that it's… you know, like from a personal point of view, or, you know, from anyone's point of view, I think it's useful to kind of look at those different  types of leadership and just draw conclusions about people and how they operate, because then it helps you inventory what you want to be doing. 

And so, you know, in a tough situation, even in a small marketing or sales team, it can be valuable to have a courageous leader of that team who says, "Well, even though the customers today are not listening to what you have to say, I believe in what you're doing and I think we're going to get there," as opposed to the leader who says, either, "I think we're going to fail," without really having a lot of confidence in their team, or saying that, "I really blame the problems we have on you, the team," as opposed to taking responsibility for themselves. Those are all aspects of courageous leadership in my mind.

Dr. Richard Shuster:
Perfect examples. The book is called Seeing Around Corners. It's available everywhere today. Ken, as you know, I wrap up every episode by asking my guests just this one question, and that is, what is your biggest helping, that one most important takeaway you'd like somebody to walk away with after hearing our conversation today?

Ken Banta:
Yeah, I think the most important thing is that leadership is really for everybody. And so, the idea that leaders are at the top of some pyramid and other people are below or only supporting them, I think, is a wrong conclusion. Not everyone can be the top leader in the sense of  the leader of a large team or a gigantic team, but within teams, everyone can play a leadership role. And by that, I mean, there's that approach of leading sideways with colleagues, which is a certain form of leadership. You can also lead upwards through influence by influencing the person who's at the top of that team. And so, I think that concept that everyone has a leadership role to play and leadership capabilities is the takeaway, I think, from that book.

Dr. Richard Shuster:
Perfect. Ken, tell us where people can learn more about you online.

Ken Banta:
Well, I think the best place to look is on our site, which is thevanguardnetwork.com. And you'll find a bit about me and a bit about our organization as well.

Dr. Richard Shuster:
Perfect, and we'll have links to everything Ken Banta, including a link to purchase, Seeing Around Corners in the show notes at drrichardshuster.com. Well, Ken, thank you so much for joining us today. I love the conversation,  insightful as expected, really appreciate it.

Ken Banta:
Well, thanks again for having me.

Dr. Richard Shuster:
Absolutely. And I also wanna thank each and every one of you who took time out of your day to listen to this. If you liked it, if you learned something, if you're excited and inspired, go give us a five star review on your podcast app of choice, because this is what helps other people find this show. But most importantly, go out there today and do something nice for someone else, even if you don't know who they are, and post it in your feeds using the hashtag, #MyDailyHelping, because the happiest people are those that help others.